Is Maddie believing and/or deceiving? Selfless and/or selfish?

Marlena

Well-known member
I always thought that she probably thought it was David's, but didn't want to face that. However, then I think about how she was in tears when she was on the train, telling a man she hardly knows... and who does not know David at all, that David's not the father. And she's crying, saying she doesn't know how she's going to tell him... about sonograms and calendars... that he was at the right place at the wrong time. What reason would she have had to lie to Walter?
 

UnderMoonlight

Active member
I always thought that she probably thought it was David's, but didn't want to face that. However, then I think about how she was in tears when she was on the train, telling a man she hardly knows... and who does not know David at all, that David's not the father. And she's crying, saying she doesn't know how she's going to tell him... about sonograms and calendars... that he was at the right place at the wrong time. What reason would she have had to lie to Walter?
I must admit, its been a long time since I have seen those episodes so I did forget about that scene. You make a really good point. When I rewatch those eps, I may have some more comments.
 

FanofMoonlighting

Well-known member
I always thought that she probably thought it was David's, but didn't want to face that. However, then I think about how she was in tears when she was on the train, telling a man she hardly knows... and who does not know David at all, that David's not the father. And she's crying, saying she doesn't know how she's going to tell him... about sonograms and calendars... that he was at the right place at the wrong time. What reason would she have had to lie to Walter?
It really didn't make sense at all. I think it was just a way for the writers to cause conflict and drama between them. And then later they tell us the baby is David's and as far as we know David and Maddie never find out. Sometimes this show is pretty frustrating, but I can't seem to stop watching it or thinking about it anyway. I guess the positive outweighs the negative.
 

Marlena

Well-known member
I don't know if any of you read my recent fanfic story called "Since I Lost My Maddie" (yes, I'm shamelessly promoting my own story here ;)), but it deals with this issue in a way that could fit in with the actual events on the show.

But, when I first started writing it, my thinking was that, out of sheer panic, Maddie lied to David about the baby being Sam's because she was trying to keep David at arm's length. Then my thinking was that she didn't want to admit that she lied so she stuck with her lie knowing they would eventually get a paternity test. If it was Sam's then she had told the truth, if it turned out to be David's, then David would just be thrilled it was his. No harm done.

So this was how I first started writing my story, but then I had this big revelation when I remembered that scene on the train. I think that scene reveals more than anything that Maddie truly believed the baby was Sam's because she had absolutely no reason to lie to Walter. Needless to say, I then had to go back and redo parts of my story, but I think it all worked out in the end.
 

UnderMoonlight

Active member
It really didn't make sense at all. I think it was just a way for the writers to cause conflict and drama between them. And then later they tell us the baby is David's and as far as we know David and Maddie never find out. Sometimes this show is pretty frustrating, but I can't seem to stop watching it or thinking about it anyway. I guess the positive outweighs the negative.
I think you are right. The whole baby situation was a mess because the writers clearly all had different visions for that storyline. And it shows majorly. So I dont think we will ever be able to make it all make sense.

I remember when I was a kid, at the time obviously alot of Moonlighting went over my head or it just didnt make sense.

But at the time, because Maddie said it was Sams, even though David was the one playing the baby in AWWAV, I thought that was because, even though the baby was Sams, David was going to step in and be its father.

I didnt think to question it, and so it made me sad that it wasnt Davids. But Im so glad that after seeing it as an adult, the whole Bruce being the baby was a huge clue that the baby was Davids.
 

UnderMoonlight

Active member
I don't know if any of you read my recent fanfic story called "Since I Lost My Maddie" (yes, I'm shamelessly promoting my own story here ;)), but it deals with this issue in a way that could fit in with the actual events on the show.

But, when I first started writing it, my thinking was that, out of sheer panic, Maddie lied to David about the baby being Sam's because she was trying to keep David at arm's length. Then my thinking was that she didn't want to admit that she lied so she stuck with her lie knowing they would eventually get a paternity test. If it was Sam's then she had told the truth, if it turned out to be David's, then David would just be thrilled it was his. No harm done.

So this was how I first started writing my story, but then I had this big revelation when I remembered that scene on the train. I think that scene reveals more than anything that Maddie truly believed the baby was Sam's because she had absolutely no reason to lie to Walter. Needless to say, I then had to go back and redo parts of my story, but I think it all worked out in the end.
I am all for fanfiction recommendations! I love to read. So I will have to definately read your story. Is it on Fanfiction.net?
 

FanofMoonlighting

Well-known member
I think you are right. The whole baby situation was a mess because the writers clearly all had different visions for that storyline. And it shows majorly. So I dont think we will ever be able to make it all make sense.

I remember when I was a kid, at the time obviously alot of Moonlighting went over my head or it just didnt make sense.

But at the time, because Maddie said it was Sams, even though David was the one playing the baby in AWWAV, I thought that was because, even though the baby was Sams, David was going to step in and be its father.

I didnt think to question it, and so it made me sad that it wasnt Davids. But Im so glad that after seeing it as an adult, the whole Bruce being the baby was a huge clue that the baby was Davids.
Doesn't the angel even say that on Earth there is some confusion about who the baby's father is, but they (I guess God and the angels) know that there is no question who the father is?
I think you are right, that the writers had different visions for that story. Sometimes I wish the whole show was just written by the same few writers to keep it more consistent. But then again, they probably never thought there would still be fans picking it apart 35 years later!
 

UnderMoonlight

Active member
Doesn't the angel even say that on Earth there is some confusion about who the baby's father is, but they (I guess God and the angels) know that there is no question who the father is?
I think you are right, that the writers had different visions for that story. Sometimes I wish the whole show was just written by the same few writers to keep it more consistent. But then again, they probably never thought there would still be fans picking it apart 35 years later!
I will be rewatching this episode soon, but yes I think they did say something along those lines.

I think if Glenn had stayed then it would have been a much different story. Haha, well the show is iconic. The actors became even more well known, but yeh 35 years is a long time. But thank goodness this show is still so loved. I dont ever want it to be forgotten.
 

Boink

Administrator
Staff member
I always thought that she probably thought it was David's, but didn't want to face that. However, then I think about how she was in tears when she was on the train, telling a man she hardly knows... and who does not know David at all, that David's not the father. And she's crying, saying she doesn't know how she's going to tell him... about sonograms and calendars... that he was at the right place at the wrong time. What reason would she have had to lie to Walter?
There are only two reasons she would have shared this information with Walter:
  1. Dr. Hill estimated in a scripted but unaired/unfilmed? scene for "Tale in Two Cities" that Maddie was about 6 weeks along by that time, ensuring beyond any doubt that David was the father. Four months later, and just one day prior to Maddie's boarding her train back to L.A., the story "Maddie's Diary" has it that she receives - and is deeply troubled by - contradictory news from her doctor (presumably Dr. Hill) that the baby could ONLY have been conceived on the night she was with Sam - not even two nights later with David. There is no way this could be known at the time, and Dr. Hill was portrayed as a reasonable person, without the sort of ego or ignorance that would drive him to claim to know more than he possibly could. Still, the Original Series has a troubled Maddie sharing this information with Walter as if she just received it, so the explanation provided by "Maddie's Diary" fits the narrative.
  2. For whatever reason (fear, selfishness, concern for David, or some combination thereof), Maddie is not prepared to discuss with David, or even face herself, the possibility of the baby being his. She is creating a world around her in which the baby can only be Sam's, and her dumping this information on Walter is just one more step down the path of having to do the same for David.
Neither of these reasons makes much logical sense, because Maddie is an intelligent person/detective who has been sent a box of baby books from another intelligent person/detective who is obviously doing his homework. Logic, however, is of minimal importance to Maddie (or the writers, if you prefer) in season 4, and David does his best to play along, at least until the moment he's had enough... a moment completely ignored by the Original Series but which is thankfully very nicely handled by Marlena's story, "Since I Lost My Maddie."
 

FanofMoonlighting

Well-known member
There are only two reasons she would have shared this information with Walter:
  1. Dr. Hill estimated in a scripted but unaired/unfilmed? scene for "Tale in Two Cities" that Maddie was about 6 weeks along by that time, ensuring beyond any doubt that David was the father. Four months later, and just one day prior to Maddie's boarding her train back to L.A., the story "Maddie's Diary" has it that she receives - and is deeply troubled by - contradictory news from her doctor (presumably Dr. Hill) that the baby could ONLY have been conceived on the night she was with Sam - not even two nights later with David. There is no way this could be known at the time, and Dr. Hill was portrayed as a reasonable person, without the sort of ego or ignorance that would drive him to claim to know more than he possibly could. Still, the Original Series has a troubled Maddie sharing this information with Walter as if she just received it, so the explanation provided by "Maddie's Diary" fits the narrative.
  2. For whatever reason (fear, selfishness, concern for David, or some combination thereof), Maddie is not prepared to discuss with David, or even face herself, the possibility of the baby being his. She is creating a world around her in which the baby can only be Sam's, and her dumping this information on Walter is just one more step down the path of having to do the same for David.
Neither of these reasons makes much logical sense, because Maddie is an intelligent person/detective who has been sent a box of baby books from another intelligent person/detective who is obviously doing his homework. Logic, however, is of minimal importance to Maddie (or the writers, if you prefer) in season 4, and David does his best to play along, at least until the moment he's had enough... a moment completely ignored by the Original Series but which is thankfully very nicely handled by Marlena's story, "Since I Lost My Maddie."
Plus, in Maddie Hayes Got Married that she wishes the baby were David's. She seems so sincere about that, so it's hard to believe she is lying about thinking it's Sam's at that point.
I'll have to find time to read Marlena's story soon!
 

Marlena

Well-known member
Plus, in Maddie Hayes Got Married that she wishes the baby were David's. She seems so sincere about that, so it's hard to believe she is lying about thinking it's Sam's at that point.
I'll have to find time to read Marlena's story soon!
The lying thing was just something I was originally thinking, but I didn't go in that direction. In both the Original Series and in my story, she truly believes the baby is Sam's. She wishes it was David's baby, and maybe in some small way thinks it could be his, but she really sticks with what her doctor, and the sonograms and calendar tell her, and that is that it was Sam's.
 

MoonlightingMagic

Well-known member
I always thought that she probably thought it was David's, but didn't want to face that. However, then I think about how she was in tears when she was on the train, telling a man she hardly knows... and who does not know David at all, that David's not the father. And she's crying, saying she doesn't know how she's going to tell him... about sonograms and calendars... that he was at the right place at the wrong time. What reason would she have had to lie to Walter?
This kills me. She was with Sam a day before she was with David!!!!! And she and David boinked probably dozens of times if not more in that month together. There was NO reason to think it was Sam's for sure!
 

Boink

Administrator
Staff member
The lying thing was just something I was originally thinking, but I didn't go in that direction. In both the Original Series and in my story, she truly believes the baby is Sam's. She wishes it was David's baby, and maybe in some small way thinks it could be his, but she really sticks with what her doctor, and the sonograms and calendar tell her, and that is that it was Sam's.
While I prefer the idea of Maddie being sincere in her belief that Sam MUST be the father, this necessitates considerable naivety or ignorance on her part. As is wonderfully explained in your story, David's playing along with her "it's not yours" claim until he could get a sense of their post-Chicago relationship is spot on, but for Maddie herself to not even question Sam being the father when she wishes "with her whole heart" that the baby was David's just never made sense in the Original Series. Still, I respect your respect for the Original Series.

Out of respect for Maddie's intelligence, however, I have presented the ONLY more-selfless-than-selfish motive I can imagine for her lying in the Available Concept, "Maddie's Diary: Off the Record", which takes place the day before she boards the train back to L.A. and consists of the following:

Thurs, July 21, 1988. Maddie is crushed when a doctor's appointment reveals a condition that puts prospects of her baby's healthy delivery in probable but uncertain territory. Aware of the pain she has already caused David, and wanting to spare him any sense of personal guilt or responsibility for the potential loss of another baby, she decides to tell him that Sam is the father until after all goes well with the birth and the baby's parentage can be conclusively determined.

No other scenario comes to my mind in which an intelligent, unselfish (especially by season 4 standards) Maddie could sincerely express her wish that David is the father, while buffering him from that possibility until a healthy baby is (hopefully) born and paternity could be definitively confirmed. If the baby was lost, and David pushed for a paternity test, she would oblige, but she would let him lead the charge at that point.
 

essed

Member
Boink, would the doctor’s phone call/bad news scenario present after Fetal Attraction when Maddie talks to Agnes and tells her parents (as she’s packing for home): “I don’t really much care who the father was, it’s much more important to me who the father is going to be, if there’s going to be a father.” She seems to be implying (or lying?) to her parents that she thinks David is not the biological dad but since he’s willing to do the work of being a father to her child she is going home (to him) to see if they can work it out.
 

Boink

Administrator
Staff member
Boink, would the doctor’s phone call/bad news scenario present after Fetal Attraction when Maddie talks to Agnes and tells her parents (as she’s packing for home): “I don’t really much care who the father was, it’s much more important to me who the father is going to be, if there’s going to be a father.” She seems to be implying (or lying?) to her parents that she thinks David is not the biological dad but since he’s willing to do the work of being a father to her child she is going home (to him) to see if they can work it out.
I don't think those conversations rule out any scenario or answer the question as to whether Maddie is believing and/or deceiving (for reasons selfless and/or selfish) that Sam is the biological father. She just seems to be playing the situation as coolly as possible, hinting to everyone else that she would prefer David as the baby's "Dad", while at the same time minimizing expectations. Typical of their relationship, unfortunately.
 
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